I’m an agnostic, so it isn’t about me being a Christian. However, I’ve looked into the New World Order plans enough to know that it isn’t good for people like us. They are anti-human and anti-life; that’s evil, I don’t care if you’re religious or not. The current problems in the world were deliberately caused by them, through the fractional reserve banking system, the deliberate dumbing down of state-run education and control of the media, among many others. To embrace the NWO as a solution would be like asking a guy who just robbed you if you could borrow some money. (wait… that is what they do!)

They sell it by using words like “peace,” “equality,” “unity” and others to appeal to your ethos. Of course we all want those things. But that’s not what they have in store, sorry to say!

They’re creepy and so is Zeitgeist.

Let me start slowly and give a thought about what I have to say:
First of all, people here are all looking for answers. Most people doesn’t do that and are happy (or unhappy) in their state of being. Also, everyone is looking for “truth”. I myself was looking for the very thing and after some time I realized, that I was not really looking for “truth” but I was really looking for understanding. Let me back that up:

There really is no such thing as “the truth”. There are only facts. Everything else is pure interpretation. I myself was not able to actually tell the difference between “what really happened” and what I”saw”. For vast majority of people thes two things are so much interconnected, that they are not even able to tell the diference. Interpretation means giving or atributing “meaning” to event.

Ever heard question: “What does this mean?”. More correct question would be: “What does this mean to you?”

Event itself has no meaning until you give one to it. Give event one interpretation and you will be happy, give it another and you will be sad. The reason humans do this is because it helps them to orient in the world faster. This create patterns of behavior. However these very patterns of behavior also prevent human to see other aspects and to think “outside the box”.

Also on this matter I would like to state, that no two interpretations are the same. Reason is quite simple. In order to have an interpretation, you need an interpretor - human being. And since every life of each human is different, so is the experience and ultimatly the very brains of individuals. It is a fact that there are no two same brains on the planet, no same tomograph images, thus there cannot be any two same points of view.

When you asses these facts, all you are left with are interpreting humans, who are interdependant. In order to actualy make things work, you need to comunicate and understand different humans beings.

This is where Jacque comes and tell you: “There is no such thing as a human nature, only human behavior. Human behavior is created by the enviroment.”

This is valid for Adolf Hitler, Obama, you, me, Banksters, Christians etc. This means that there is no such thing as good or evil. Its all just human bahavior. The thing is not about passing judgements, but trying to understand the enviroment from which particular person comes from.

Humans act to the best they learned. Yet just so few actually learned on understanding each other.

What you can see around you are people bashing each other with arguments and their opinions. All looking for “the truth”. Well, there is no “truth”. Or more precisly: “Truth is, what I precieve as the truth.” This means, that each human has his own “truth”. Everyone has truth. Everyone is right. Sad thing about being right is, that you cannot learn anything new.

If you know “the truth”, how can you learn anything new? How can you become a better person? How can you solve your problems and problems of others? You can’t.

In the end it comes to a choise. Choise between wisdom and ingnorance. Choise between love and fear. You can either choose to “be right” or to listen and learn from each other.

So in the end I would like to know answer to this question:
“If you go and tell people about these groups (Illuminaty, NWO etc.), what do you propose to do with it?”

“Do you see it as a one-time phenomena or do you percieve it as a built-in the system in a sence that money it self leads to stratification and ultimatly to such groups?”

And more importantly:
“If you you percieve The Zeitgeist movement or the Venus project as an inadeqate solution to world problems, what other solution you propose?”

PS:
I want to stress that I’m not really interested in who is who (black, white, jew, christian, luciferic, NWO, ku klux clan, comunnist, nazi etc.) but I’m really more interested in what are the problems and how to solve them.

But seriously Terry, thanks for starting a very productive post and congrats to everyone for remaining civilized through out it.

Terry, if you could please start a post, write and essay or make a movie outlining your solutions to the same problems addressed by Fresco and Joseph, then I would be delighted to critique you!

oh BTW, I know this comes 2 years after you made the comment but there are, language difficulties aside, now 418,484 people registered at the ZM website, so there is indeed a movement and it’s gaining momentum regardless of whether you think us to be delusional or misguided.

“It is the characteristic excellence of the strong man that he can bring momentous issues to the fore and make a decision about them. The weak are always forced to decide between alternatives they have not chosen themselves.” - Dietrich Bonhoeffer

While I agree that Utopian”ism” is a faraway dream that most tend to believe is just a literary concept and nothing more… I think the ideas expressed by Fresco are closer than anyone has come to dreaming of a system that could just work. There’s really nothing more important than managing the Earth’s resources… I feel that’s clear at this point… at least to me… but logically speaking… is there anything more important? We should be developing strategies to create society around that concept, at the very least… and that’s what he’s doing.

At some point you need to trust somebody. His ideas are actually incredibly good. As an engineer, myself (software and permaculture)… I think his designs are very well thought out, having viewed several of them (on paper) specifically. I know history keeps teaching us horrible lessons about men who want to lead… but he’s not really a leader, he’s a engineer. I think you’re all a bit too paranoid. Since you don’t like Jaques Fresco… then what system DO you consider to be utopian? How else would you free the people? Removing money and providing everyone with the most abundance we can possibly sustain sounds like a good concept to me. What works for you? Should we just stick with the system we have and ride that out until we all starve and die of thirst? How do we live in concert with Earth in an elitist technocracy? The entire aim of the Venus Project is to connect us to the planet and work WITH it’s systems and ecological loops, rather than against them… and you’re saying that’s still incorrect. I think you are all a bit too paranoid… wishing to spew your knowledge of Hegelian philosophy back and fourth rather than spew thoughts about solutions. As far as I’m concerned, you’ve all become the thing you hate. Break down my words all you want… but at the end of the day… sitting at a coffee shop and talking about Descartes is just an arrogant waste of time that helps perpetuate a system of disconnected, divisive bullshit.

YOu re being totally dishonest and deceitful. Christians and Christianity are not starting any wars. In fact, if you want to keep God and Jesus totally out of it, fine. It is the zionist jews, who are either atheistic or luciferian, that have been manipulating events from behind the scenes and starting the wars. Almost every single one of them masons. Many belonging to Luciferian halls and secret societies. If you weed away the lower ranks and get to the heart of the matter, you will find they’re all satanists and luciferians. If they don’t believe they are a god themselves, they believe Lucifer to be God and “the light”. It is tehse people who have started all the wars. ANd you know this…. So quit blaming christianity.

The Venus Project is another cunning Luciferian project. You need to watch some of the documentaries made by Chris White , Cozmik Truth, and Keith Truth.

That makes no sense whatsoever. That’s like saying you have degree’s in Biblical Studies therefore you support religion and it’s ideals.

It’s like saying you play World of Warcraft so therefore you must a WoW addict.

It’s like saying you smoke weed, therefore you addicted to weed…

It’s like saying… well I think you know where I am getting with this. Your statement is nothing more than a huge Logical Fallacy… probably the end all of Logical Fallacies.

“I am interested in someone who used to be apart of the Theosophical Society, but I was never interested in any of their speeches when he was part of the Theosophical Society, but after he dissolved from it… he became interested. However by extent I am interested in Theosophical Society.”

You see how ridiculous this completely bunked notion is?

Also about the leaders… actually if you even took the time to speak to various people within those countries, looked at the speeches from those places, etc, etc, etc… and talked to people who witnessed the events; his story actually does match up with reality.

Be that as it may, historically the American Revolution was viewed (as far as the British side goes into it) as some kind of ragtog group of men trying to undermine the monarchy. Their was a huge campaign to demonize them… this is in fact something that is regularly done throughout history. Such as the Jew’s being viewed as inferior by Rome, such as the various insurgent groups against the Chinese Emperors being viewed as barbarians similar with how we viewed the Native Americans during the 1800s where people were ordered to kill any Native American people and/or enslave them.

This type of tactic has been used for thousands of years… what makes you think it still isn’t being used today?

I also find it funny that you are willing tout his “leadership” of Neoshamanism when in reality the term doesn’t mean much and it varies from person to person so unless I hear a statement from John Perkins himself, it really isn’t going to do much.

Also apparently the critic never did watch the film otherwise he would note what the film actually states is “nearly all crimes a cause of the monetary system.” Also I think he is making the erroneous statement of an age old quote where it actually states “The love of money is the root of all evil.” So I give you an EF for epic fail on that.

Also you failed and I mean EPICLY FAILED to address my other point about the Venus Project and Socialism. You just ran with the high horse of John Perkin’s view, the association fallacy (the biggest fallacy of them all) and thus tried to associate that with the Movement.

Be that as it may, even if John Perkins is a Communist Apologist (of which all you just make is some kind of asinine appeal to authority) it does not mean what he says is any less valid. Newton believed in Spirits, the Philosophers stone, etc… does this mean we should through out Newtonian Mechanics because of Newton’s views? No…

Also Peter Joseph is not a cult leader… he’s not even a leader. He is what you would associate with the Movement, but he has expressed over two dozen times that he is not a leader. He has also encouraged people to be informed, to look things up, to address his claims. How can Peter be some kind of cult leader and tell people not to take his word for it? That makes little to no sense.

Also, yes I know about Henri de Saint-Simons French Socialism, it does not pertain to the Venus Project because for obvious reasons his idea was based on Merit gained… while Jacque has stated that people will have access to everything and people can learn what they wish and contribute to society in whatever way they can be it new technological inventions, music, art, philosopher, literature or entertainment. There is no restriction based on merit, education, class or even status in society that would prohibit you or anyone trying to contribute.

How is that when I address you claim, all you just did was offer up the same arguments I just addressed?

EF for Epic Fail.

Re: socialism (see Griffin’s take)

Re: Krishnamurti

You’re into Krishnamurti, then you’re into Theosophy by extension. Peter Joseph is too much of a coward to admit it, even though his films wreak of it.

Re: Perkins

Read his book. He is a Marxist apologist. An astute poster at Daily Paul put it this way:

There is a lengthy segment in which the author of I Was an Economic Hit Man, John Perkins, tells the story of how propagandists in the U.S. manipulated public opinion to support military action against several Latin American countries. Then Perkins says that these propagandists scared Americans by telling them that the leaders of these countries were Marxists who were aligned with the Soviets. This, of course, is a half truth that is just as dangerous as a total lie. It is true about the propagandists and
their strategy to scare the public into supporting military intervention in those countries, but it is false to portray those dictators as great humanitarians who cared only for the well being of their people. That is total bunk. They WERE aligned with the Soviet Union and they WERE part of a Marxist/Leninist strategy to dominate Latin America; a strategy that continues to this day.

[...]

Perhaps the biggest insult to our intelligence is the main theme of the program. It is that profits are the root of all our problems today. That being the case, we must change mankind to reject profit and we must work together on some other basis. It is never quite clear what that basis is, but, whatever it is, it will be administered and directed by an elite group, at least in the beginning. I was stunned by the fact that this is pure Marxism. Mark theorized that people had to be re-educated (in labor camps, if necessary) to cleanse their minds of the profit motive. He and his disciples, such as Lenin and Stalin and Khruschev, said that, eventually, the character of man would be purged of greed, and then the state would wither away because it no longer would be needed. Sure! We saw that in the Soviet Union and China, right? Yet this Marxist nonsense is exactly what is offered in this video program. It is Communism without using the name.

As for Perkins flaming wacko New Age/shamanistic indulgences, his official sites on the internet are full of it. Are you blind? This too:

John Perkins is a leading figure of contemporary neo-shamanism. He leads retreats around the world, wrote the book Shapeshifting: Shamanic Techniques for Global and Personal Transformation

You know what a disinformation agent does? He tells half truths that - though outrageous - seem believable on the surface, while the original argument is actually fact. The information is promoted to the hilt and made sure that it becomes viral and gains a following. The asset is then told to get involved with a fringe movement - any one will do, just so long as it can easily be discredited. After that, it is only a matter of saying: “Look at the kook. Shapeshifting and Shamanism? New Age healer? Tff … we knew that stuff about economic hitmen was bunk!”

I’m not anti-science. You failed miserably to grasp the point. I’m anti-Technocracy, and anti-scientism and against an elite deciding anything whatsoever as it concerns me or society at large.

I study history and the history of ideas. It’s more than just a hobby of mine. I know from whence these doctrines descend, and from whom. “Peter Joseph” is counting on it that you ARE NOT as well read. (What a cult leader fears most are followers who are truly informed.) Start with Henri de Saint-Simon (Frank Manuel’s monograph and Billington’s essential summaries and analyses in Fire in the Minds) and branch from there. If after that you don’t get the gist of it, then there is no hope for you. You have blinders on.

First off, anyone even knowing the differences between Socialism and a Resource Based Economy could figure out the very differences between the two in just under a 2 hour bit of internet researching.

“A Resource-Based Economy is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude. All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few. The premise upon which this system is based is that the Earth is abundant with plentiful resources; our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counterproductive to our survival.

Modern society has access to highly advanced technology and can make available food, clothing, housing and medical care; update our educational system; and develop a limitless supply of renewable, non-contaminating energy. By supplying an efficiently designed economy, everyone can enjoy a very high standard of living with all of the amenities of a high technological society.

A resource-based economy would utilize existing resources from the land and sea, physical equipment, industrial plants, etc. to enhance the lives of the total population. In an economy based on resources rather than money, we could easily produce all of the necessities of life and provide a high standard of living for all.”
http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

This is what Jacque Fresco states… lets see what a Socialistic Society is shall we?

“It is the aim of Socialism to transfer the means of production from private ownership to the ownership of organized society, to the State. The socialistic State owns all material factors of production and thus directs it. This transfer need not be carried out with due observance of the formalities elaborated for property transfers according to the law set up in the historical epoch which is based on private property in the means of production. Still less important in such a process of transfer is the traditional terminology of Law. Ownership is power of disposal, and when this power of disposal is divorced from its traditional name and handed over to a legal institution which bears a new name, the old terminology is essentially unimportant in the matter. Not the word but the thing must be considered. Limitation of the rights of owners as well as formal transference is a means of socialization. If the State takes the power of disposal from the owner piecemeal, by extending its influence over production; if its power to determine what direction production shall take and what kind of production there shall be, is increased, then the owner is left at last with nothing except the empty name of ownership, and property has passed into the hands of the State.”
Socialism: An Economic and Sociological Analysis Chapter 2 Socialism - The State and Economic Activity p. 1

As you can see two entirely different things.

Also J. Krishnamurti dissolved himself from the Theosophical Society long ago…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk-8hS_TytI&feature=PlayList&p=58A1818787D6CFB6&index=1&playnext=2&playnext_from=PL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMxXdLUHdv4&feature=PlayList&p=58A1818787D6CFB6&index=2&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL

He was connected to theosophical society yes… but after he disbanded himself from it at the latest gathering it was like if the Pope said that Christianity is a fake at his largest gathering speech ever.

“For something that purports to espouse “a modern, non-superstitious based understanding” of the world”

This portion I really chuckled at. Are you implying that somehow demons, angels, ghosts, warlocks, witches, wizards, etc, etc, etc… exist in this world?

“New Age, shamanistic practitioner, communist apologist, John Perkins’”

This one really blew me away… what kind of evidence do you have other than a site that in the about us states:

“The Dream Change Comminity
DREAM CHANGE (DC) is a world wide grass roots movement of people from diverse cultures and backgrounds dedicated to shifting consciousness and promoting sustainable lifestyles for the individual and global community. The objective of inspiring earth-honoring changes in consciousness is accomplished through programs that educate and foster environmental and social balance. DC was originated to encourage new ways of living.”

This is something I also found funny because I could not find a single quote by John Perkins himself as being a Communist apologist or even a New Age/Shamanistic Practitioner.

“Parts III and IV of Addendum supports this utopian reordering of society that occultists have longed for.”

This is something I could never understand. In the Film Jacque Fresco states it is not Utopian, it is not a perfect world, it is much better than what we have now, and that we can never reach perfection.

Also the entire society is based on nothing but technology and the scientific method… out of curiosity do you even know how the scientific method works?

This entire article to me just screams with nothing but anti-science apologetic claims.

you lack the ability to understand what it is i am saying, so i am not offended.

Science is far from absolute, and the root assupmtions of 200 BC are FAR from those of today, which are constantly being thrown on the trash heap to make way for newer “truer” conclusions and root assumptions.

but i do like how you question the ideals of the new Zeitgeist film, but here is the SOULution you’ve all been waiting for, already know, but are too scared to shift:

Does heaven exist? Of course it does, we live on planet heaven. With all of it’s natural ABUNDANT resources and breathtaking scenery, we live in what could be heaven. The problem is that we live in fear. We are controlled by fear, so if you want to live in heaven, stop living in fear.

You say “there is no truth, only perception. This is highly illogical. If the sentence, “There is no truth” is true, then the sentence itself cannot be true,hence, there is truth…. it’s a self-contradiction.

In a logical universe, the basis of our mathematics, and by extension, science, is the idea that there is absolute Truth, and that facts can be determined by empirical data.

As for me, I DO believe in God, based not on blind faith, but based on empirical evidence that I have seen in my own life. Spirituality, unlike religion, is based on an inner relationship to God, and not on a superficial external belief based on fuzzy logic. God is the highest form of intelligent life in our universe.

I looked at the Zeitgeist film, and was disturbed by the authoritarian ideas implicit in such a system. Firstly, the idea that there are “limited” resources which would be allocated to a certain number of people. Who gets to decide, then, whether I will get enough of these “resources”?

Since they believe that only a limited number of people can sustainably live on this planet, what happens to the other ones? (sent to be “eliminated”?)What if I want to have more than 2 kids ?(forced abortion, like in China?)

Since they are obviously against traditional forms of religion, what happens with the people who refuse to comply? And since, as they say, everything will be owned collectively, what happens when I decide that my purse, car or silk blouse should belong to me and not the “community”? (After all, I paid for it). Will I be sent off to be “re-educated”? Sounds like communism to me.

Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Light.” You can either believe him, or not, but you can’t erroneously claim that truth doesn’t exist. But for those who seek truth, they will find it.

“Open to anything and attached to nothing” - Immaculation Inpantsipation

“Within you at this moment is a pipeline to infinite wisdom, power, and love. A part of your mind is always aware of your passion, purpose, and identity. If you do not believe this wisdom exists or if you do not seek to access it, you will not enjoy its benefits. If you consciously open to it and cultivate your connection with it, you will find all the help you need from a mighty unseen hand.” - Alan H Cohen

Atheists, skeptics, S.A.V.A.G.E.S. is a premature conclusion, that you enjoy the mediocrity of the 5 senses, and REFUSE to pay enough attention to tap into the higher resource of Source (or whatever you call it)

just because you don’t buy somebody’s story, doesn’t mean you have to settle for powerlessness

think outside of EVERY box there is, ESPECIALLY that of the ATHIEST

pants

You are pointing out two-sides of the same coin, but it’s more like a dice, and you are just one of the six sides of THAT.

Atheists and skeptics just represent the individuals who REFUSE to buy somebody else’s story. But for those of us who have our own, genuine experience to base our beliefs and knowings upon, we simply view you as over compensating with your decision to label yourself something so ordinary as an atheist.

I would consider myself to be ALL sides of said dice.

There is no “TRUTH”, just perception, and we can share ideas based on those perceptions, but like anything, match it up with YOUR EXPERIENCE, and don’t settle for anybodies else’s perception… you are unique, so conclude uniquely, not by joining YET another “society” of group think like S.A.V.A.G.E.S.

“stop following, and start leading. when people start following you, tell them to stop and to start leading. tell them to tell their followers the same thing.” - St. Pantsis of Assisi

As a secular humanist, I fail to see why it matters if Jesus existed or not. I THINK it is the height of hypocrisy for the ZM robotonz to criticize xians for believing in fantasy while they themselves choose to “believe” gods and goddesses without caring if they ever existed. What’s the difference between believing your beliefs will save you in the “rapture” and the prophesized firey apocalypse or believing that you are the “highly evolved New White Indian” destined to save “Mother Earth” from prophesized environmental apocalypse? Zeitgeist fanatics and Evangelical Christian fanatics merely represent two sides of the same coin. They are both mindless members of dangerous cults. Both mindlessly follow narcissistic leaders who only want to crack their minds and souls open and fill them with their own ideas and beliefs.

There are definite shades of German mysticism, Theosophy, Anthrosophy in this movement and the denial mechanisms strongly resemble those of the Church of Scientology.

I think the IRS needs to take a good look at this group. Those of us who haven’t become true believers need to make sure their fund raising activities are closely monitored.

From looking at their discussion board, it’s pretty evident that they are a cult or will soon become one. The members are disturbingly polarized and there is no intelligent debate and discussion being conducted there. Those who have taken a leadership role are manipulative, deceptive and clearly do not welcome tough questions or outright dissent. Their sole purpose appears to be fundraising, recruitment of new members and attacking non-believers. (war and wealth). It looks like the perfect trap for that sucker that is re-born every minute. They prey on the hopelessness and confusion of those with above average I.Q. and progressive political inclinations. It hooks them in with its outer onion shell of benign catch phrases about unity and peace and equality, but it hides it’s inner core of fascism. Using Carl Sagan as an icon is outrageous. There’s very little respect for scientific method and legitimate scientific inquiry, doubt, healthy skepticism among the ZM true believers running that board. The directions to critics by “Dr Jones” are disturbing as is the two-hour orientation video. It’s a common cult tactic to disarm and mind-numb your targets with endless presentations of ideology. It’s the first step towards thought reform in vulnerable recruits.

From what I’ve seen it is also racially segregated — VERY VERY WHITE, privileged, college educated and not interested in including anyone outside that demographic except as tokens.
I don’t see any folks of color falling for this hippy utopian new age bullshit, but it’s rampant here among those with blond dreadlocks who have a lot of leisure time for endless “drum trances.” The basic ideology sounds more like the rantings of the many of the “Rainbow Family” homeless around here who want people to give them cigarettes and money so they don’t have to get a job – a fate worse than death for someone as enlightened and evolved as they are. The movement is also very popular among white male libertarians who simply refuse to have any restrictions put on their “freedoms” from a position of social and economic power. There is also a strong pro-Eugenics base in this crowd. If they don’t watch themselves their rantings to from population control to kill all the useless breeders/eaters.

When I see the speed in which people become polarized and utterly committed to this movement and the degree to which they are willing to relinquish their individuality and critical thinking capacities, it reminds me of that old documentary “the Wave.”

Like all utopian social movements, ZM should be viewed not with the “open mind” the cult leader requires, but with a mind sharpened by critical thinking skilled and armed with authentic.

I will never give up my individuality!

I will never give up my right to radically challenge and question someone who has all the answers for you!

S.A.V.A.G.E.S.Unite!
Secular atheists voting against gurus enslaving society